Evolution or Creation ?

I was catching up on the Heroes series and it got my brain going on a tangent. So i poked around on the internet a bit and came across this.
I read a few of the comments and found some of what i call fun, arguing creation vs evolution, bible vs science.

To begin, im accepting of logical ideas. that is, creation is nonsense. evolution is a far more logical and methodical aproach to creating the diversity in this world as well as its similarities.

The concept of something laying the foundation for a mutation is mind boggling, what decides were going to grow a liver when there wasnt one before ?. depending on your belief, creation or evolution, the answer could be simple "god made it that way" or could be extremely complex, a lump of meat formed in the body and took on a function that survived and became refined over hundreds and thousands of generations (to put it simply). The fact that evolution modifies existing genetic traits generation to generation is a proven fact, dog breeding is a simple example where dogs exhibiting specific traits are bread for beneficial or desired results, and is evident in humans via the disfunctional organ known as the apendix and people who never develop wisdom teeth (I know a couple).

Getting theoretical....
The strongest possibility for foundational evolution is mutation during the fetal stage while the body is in the process of growing the functional components to sustain life. Changes in the parents diet, living conditions, physical and mental health and emotional state offer modifications to the genetic toolkit, like flipping an infinate number of switches. such mutations are then passed on if the altered offspring survive and breed with others that have experienced similar mutations then the chances of something coming out as a dominant vs recessive trait increases and you get a subspecies. As subspecies diverge from the original templates you are presented with a new species, such is the idea of evolution, that we all stem from the same ancesters millions or billions of years back. the same applies to members of the plant kingdom.

Such mutations need not be long term leaving definate fossil evidence. Say, in theory, a disease attacks the parent generation which results in the radical mutation of several offspring. In animal and insect social groups, mutated indeviduals would most likely be shunned by the status quo and form thier own communities, thus increasing thier oportunities to breed within that group and not with the original template, thus fortifying the changes. In the same way, plants mutate and thrive in conditions that thier parent community may not which ensures they become more numerous than the parent stock which eventually may dissapear entirely.
That said, mutations such as seen in comic books are limited if at all possible. While mutations would exist, they wouldnt be so radical. The entire sub/species would posess the same trait to varying degrees. The modern 'global vilage' only serves to slow the pace of radical evolution. The genepool becomes diluted with so many breeding options and recessive traits fade away and we become the perfect, or imperfect, beings we are and will be tomorrow.
On the other hand, modern medical technology and institutions allow for many 'would be terminal' mutants (grouping everything from hereditary heart disease to the mentaly handycapped) to survive and live somewhat normal lives. Offering thier modified traits to the community genepool for concideration.

whats your opinion ?

If anyone believes in creationism, please say so in this thread, so I can then ignore you on DevH. If you actually believe in that, I don't want to read anything else you have to say on anything else, because you've lost all credibility in my mind. Creationists basic argument for everything is "god planned that, or god did that". You tell them the example about dog breeding and they just say "god planned that". That's why I don't bother to even argue with them.

Or perhaps enlighten ones beliefs to embrace a sleightly more open mind. to indirectly quote Skully from X-Files (cant recall the exact words she said) 'perhaps god measures time differently, a day could be a millenium and evolution his tool for creation'

Sounds to me like youve been verbally assulted by a diehard fanatic. Those are always the most fun i find, to argue facts, science and technology. because down the road, if you still know them, you can usually tell them 'i told you so'...

Science without religion is lame, Religion without science is blind. Albert Einstein

leave the board open for a good debate.

Science proves creation.
Science says life came from the sea. Then plants and trees, fish, birds, and man was last.
So does the Bible. And it was written long before science.

man was last... except for say a Jack Russel Terrier, or hundreds of other species we've recently discovered.

My opinion on the bible is that its been translated and rewritten so many times its lost its intent. It was porbably a logbook of sorts recording the thoughts and experiences, scientific and spiritual, of the authors.
Religion itself has been bloated and twisted from its core values.. in the more severe cases, it creates stagnant minds who seem to forget one of the key things God offers man... freedom of choice. Why am I damned to hell for demanding some kind of proof ? asking questions is the scientific way, sharing answers is the scientific way, thinking for yourself is the scientific way... I think I like that better.



Pretty much all breeds of dog are decended from wolves. Domestic dogs are creations of man through selective breeding. One or two breeds cant even survive without human intervention.. the bulldog, at birth its head is too big to be delivered naturally.

People thought up creation long before the bible and in most places of the earth. The idea of creation is personification of nature. Men create things. If we want something to do a specific function we create it. We put that same expression on nature even though nothing in nature lends itself to simply being created.

http://www.crystalinks.com/creationcountries.html

Creationism only made small inroads in public schools because of it's religious roots. To get around this they invented intelligent design. It was claimed that intelligent design was actually a scientific theory making it ok to teach in schools. However, it has been proven that it actually is creationism in disguise. It is also true that intelligent design fails to follow the scientific method and has yet to open itself up to peer reviewed publications.

1 thing is that I can say for sure, we are evolving, there is no doubt in that.

Both. Who knows maybe they go hand in hand. Maybe God created us through evolution. I don't however believe that it was zip zap boom because it translates it into human time which is man made. God is obviously not man made so time shows no bearing. If you read Genesis of the Bible the progression at which things are created. For all you know 1 day of time in the Bible (which was explained to primitive people who couldn't count past their fingers and toes) could have been 10 billion years. The Bible was written by primitive people who used primitive means to communicate their messages. It is in no way shape or form fit our modern standards of accurately and scientifically explaining things. It only offers another document to collaborate with current science.

I have your answer as to time. Since say the Andromeda galaxy is 2 billion light years away. The hubbel telescope took a 100 hour light gathering photo where nothing can be seen by earth bound scopes. They saw 100's of galaxies. They estimate the most distance galaxy seen to date is about 12+ billion light years away. I agree that is probably right. I believe God created all in six days. Weather it is six days as we know or not. There is a place in the bible that says a day is a 1000 years as a 1000 years is a day.
Quote:
But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is long-suffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
2nd Peter 3: 2 - 10
End Quote:
I lean believe 6 days as we know them.
Now your time question answers.
1. God made everything appearance with age. The galaxies 12 billion light years can be see because God let that light be visible now, for the enjoyment of man to see the wonders of his creation.
2. Pre flood everything aged much slower than now. People lived 600 to 900+ years of age.
Noah spent 125 years building the Ark. It did not rot on one end as he finished the other. It would have rotted in today's world.
3. The sun had not shined directly on the earth prior to that time. There was a canopy that covered the earth by day. ( maybe like high sires clouds ) as you know leave something in the son for a year and it fades. UV may not have made it to us.
4. It had not rained on the earth prior to the flood.
5. Science says there was one continent at one time. ( Pangea) that was probably so. The contents may have separated from the flood and continental drift.
6. The earth changed a great deal after the flood . The earth as far as we know looks nothing like it did after the flood.
My personal theory:
The sea was fresh water: salts in the land washed into the sea made the salty.
The climate was farley even on the earth: lite cloud cover by day. No rain no weather patterns.
There is no half monkey half man. ( and with DNA and today's scientific medicine I bet it has been tried. Cross man and ape.

If you read the first chapters in Genesis the same order of creation just happens to be the same as since says was the order of life.

I would like your comments.
Thanks
Doug

Whether the Bible proves anything depends upon your point of view. If you believe it is the "word of God" then you could probably find a lot to explain man's past and present world. If you believe it is just a work of fiction then it cannot be used to prove anything. In between some believe it is a book of myths and legends. Because many myths and legends have grains of truth in them the problem is to discover what information is based on fact and what is not.