Page 2 - Can Computers Think?

Wrong. We are genetically programmed in regards to the way we look, and maybe even intelligence and perhaps even likes and dislikes. But if I gave you a riddle, would you be genetically programmed as to what answer you would give?

Machines will never be conscious or aware or truly intelligent because they will always be subject to the limits of our programming. yes the software we create will eventually be able to be extremely complex, but it will still be code that guides everything the machines do.

This may be way beyond this subject but link
In that case humans (we) are machines too.
I strongly believe in deterministic system. And it might be considered as some kind of religion.
[off topic]
This is the only way I can accept some "God" intervention, because even deterministioc theories includes some uncertanties at the begginings (please notify plural). The whole space might be much more complicated that we expected.

so you don't believe in free will?

Generaly, no.
This is something invented for religion needs.
(Althgough there is that Schreddinger's cat thing)

you are wrong mphil!!! notice how i wrote "... being able to calculate as many possible future moves as possible and this is where the pc has a huge advantage over a human, as we can miss a possible future move but a pc cant forget - it's programmed to calculate each possible move and to retaliate using the move with calculates to have the highest probability of success"

"the pc has huge advantage" - not garanteed success because it can only "calculates to have the highest probability of success" there are many ways to win, the pc just picks the best way available - this "best" way is still not garanteed and that is why a human can beat pc!

the other big problem with the pc playing chess is that the pc is only as good as the program it is using to do these calculations!! as any pc can only do what it is told to.

free will definetly exists thats why some people murder, rape, steal, cheat, overclock, adopt, volunteer, donate, write guides and share them, etc and if anyone does one of these because they were told, ultimately there is a boss somewhere handing down the directions and he/she is following nothing but free will.

long live the debate

Until we understand are own consciousness, this is not a question we can answer. The actions of humans can be predicted with a 70% success rate using pioneering electromagnetic brain scanning stuff; and assuming consciousness is symbiotic with our surroundings and developments, then I see no reason that the human concept of consciousness could be emulated.

i can probably predict my wife's reaction to something 90% of the time. someone i don't know? maybe 30%, maybe 50%.

that 70% figure is from sensors linked to software like ccd to for body language, microphone heart monitor, infrared body heat sensor, moisture sensor on the skin, etc...

problem is the pc will only be as good as the program written. it can only calculate things that it has been told to calculate.

cmon people, i thought we were all smart! the day a pc has intelligence is the day you can do things like have a conversation with it. and that doesn't include running software with pre-programmed responses and a random-number generator used to decide which exact pre-recorded phrase to use, so it just seems that the pc is deciding for itself what to say. that is just a complex program written by an intelligent human, not artificial intelligence in the pc.

Bottom-line is that none of us will be alive when AI and AC will get so advanced --almost perfect.

AI is advancing quite steadily but "to think" is not about AI, it's simple.

Like I already explained in my very first post, the most important attributes are consciousness, awareness and emotions, plus of course intelligence (which can be solved with 'excellent AI').

I realize that technology advances in quantum leaps. In 1960 (super)computers were so huge that they were occupying whole rooms. Now a mobile phone, palm can proceed and execute billions of more information. Yet again, I do not even need to point out Moore's Law here-- we all know about it.

Problem is with consciousness, awareness and emotions. We can't emulate emotions, yet. We can't understand consciousness and awareness, how it works on human beings then how to 'model' and 'program' them? You can't. We can't, yet.

It takes time.. a lot of time to research them; cognitive sciences and quantum physics, mostly-- but not only.

you know, im thinking now, there are alot of stupid people out there. would it be that hard to write a program so a robot could be has smart and as "human" as half of the dumbasses out there? a huge database of jokes, comforting comments, insults, gestures etc can be stored, all can be chosen to compliment a particular type of personality and part of the programming is to select an appropriate folder to pick an action/comment from and then a random-number generator to select which action/comment and there you have it: a real good simulation of AI. it's not real intelligence (not possible) but it would be alot smarter and "human" than alot of the dills out there!

If you don't believe in spirit or some kind of non material part of humans than whole inteligence and self awareness is just a metter of little electrons cycling around in our bodies. I can see no reason why that could not be reproducedand emulated. I believe that even in case that human is constructed from physical and non physical parts it could be (and will be) recreated. If nothing else than virtualy. I even believe that it could happen sooner than anyone of us thinks.

Yes.

A robot could be made/built with current technologies too (or near future). Like you said with infrared sensors, ccd body language scanners, microphone, et cetera also you could hook up with a lot of storage and "install" whole dictionaries, then softwares that are similar to book-reading, that can "read" out loud texts. You could quite easily build a robot that'd outperform knowledge-wise a human being. Read below a quick robot that could be done with "current" technology, in my opinion.

The robot could calculate PI on 1MB in 10 seconds whilst a human being usually knows up to 4 digits (3.1415). The robot could perfectly speech and talk/translate hundreds of languages a la BabelFish. Calculate billions of mathematical equations and basically anything in a matter of seconds (if not nano-/mili-). You could "store" on the robot billions of books and other informations. The robot could compile in more than 20 programming languages. Basically the robot would be capable to 'learn' everything and then 'speech,' about the learned subject. The robot could also write, yes eventually handwriting. How? Installing a font that's pretty much similar to a specific handwriting and the robot would print the information to a sheet of paper. Also, the robot could predict things that can happen around as far as his algorithm goes.

^ The above robot would basically outperform any human being at an 'intellectual' level. So yes, one of the 4 factors is matched-- INTELLIGENCE. But what about consciousness, awareness and emotions?

Would it be capable to feel emotions? I don't mean temperatures... it's about "very own desires," attitude, love, hate, anger, shyness, appreciation, respect, worry, anxiety, etc. Not at all...

Would the robot be aware and conscious of its situation? Yes, if we program it to reply with a "yes!" in case if we ask it, but otherwise not really. Also, like I, MisterEd and butmunch said the humanity does not understand these attributes. So, of course, until we 'find out' and realize them, we can't model, emulate and program them. You can't write/code a program to calculate 2^2 if you don't understand the ^'s meaning (banal example and could be debated but still). It's the same with robots.

I did never said that it's going to be impossible. Nothing is impossible. Patience, patience... give it time.

In this era the humanity is pretty much in need of researchers; the more the better.

@mphill: About electrons. Everything is energy; all around us. You are energy. I am energy. Your monitor in front of you is energy. The building in what you're living is energy. The furniture behind you is energy. Chessboard is energy. It's quantum physics. Everything is energy.

Slightly off topic. Few days ago we have a break at local bar with owner of the company I am working at. He told us (half seriously) that we earneda lot of money lately and that he is considering possibility that we take one or two more jobs for now and after that take some 3 or four years for developing robot with built in AI. I know that he was saying it half seriously but it was realy intriguing. We disscused that for next hhalf an hour and we indeed have some general idea how will it operates.

thats what i meant with all the saved phrases and random selection of appropriate phrase, to simulate ai! not real but close.

i see what you are saying mphill. if a cpu has the same "circuit diagram" as a brain, then that's it - you have 100% real ai.
electricity exists in both but the problem is the way the brain works and the way any electronic part works are very different.

things will be different in the future, maybe one day we will have a circuit that behaves the same way as a brain? ok phill, ill agree that MAYBE one day it is possible....

Different kind of circuits that will operate differently can be created in virtual space that is created vith convencional hardware (I hope that would be propper term). Creatin virtual spaces is actually happening right now. Look at any game, it's a virtual space. I believe that in some future, when hardware will be fast enough we will be able to emulate anything. Including inteligence and AI.

yes, very narrow minded of me! just because anything ive seen or heard of operates differently to a human being, doesnt mean we wont stumble upon a way of finding something that does operate in the same or at least a very similar way!

if what we are talking about happens, fark... the brain controls everything...growth, height, size, skin colour, eye color, bone density, skin thickness, ageing....

if we can make an electronic brain, we caould implant it & control everything in the human body. the planet would be full of 10 metre tall chameleons with wings and since everyone lives forever the population goes crazy and we run out of air & food real quick and then we all die.

don't worry, by then we've probably found out how to inhabit any planet not to mention all the galaxys we've found